All work and no play makes me a dull admn...(General Discussion)

[Prime Administrator]

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-Prime Administrator

[Prime Administrator]

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-Prime Administrator

[Prime Administrator]

I finally found it.
The story that started the dreaded Mary Sue label.

This is the vile story that has cursed all heroes, champions, and demi-god characters alike.

A TREKKIE'S TALE

By Paula Smith


"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.

"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?"

"Captain! I am not that kind of girl!"

"You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us."

Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?"

"The Captain told me to."

"Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind." Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

Since THAT is the rule by which all so called Mary and Marty Sue/Stu characters are supposed to be measured, I think the Tropers had best tone it back a few notches.
They're getting too nitpicky and--to be frank--abusive towards Ubermench characters with purpose.
Superman is an excellent character, as is Raistlin Majere or Elric of Melbourne, or Gandalf the White, and none of them even come close to the actual Mary Sue character.
This is why my ire over this label shows no bounds.
I find this label to be more harmful than good.

[Prime Administrator]

A TREKKIE'S TALE

By Paula Smith


"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.

"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?"

"Captain! I am not that kind of girl!"

"You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us."

Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?"

"The Captain told me to."

"Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind." Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

I think I can come up with a basic, easy to understand, and non-abusive definition for a Mary/Marty Sue/Stu archtype character from this story.

1) The character must be a character that has extraordinary ability for no aparent reason other than "I'm me! Mary/Marty."

2) The character must be irresistible to all other characters of the opposite sex for no rational reason (within the confines of the story).

3) The character must be chaste.

4) The character must gain instant respect for no reason other than "I'm Mary/Marty."

5) Decisions by other characters to place this character into positions of power/authority is always the correct decision, even if there is no known reason to back up said decision.

6) The character must gain new abilities via an ass-pull by the writer (a la Mary being "Half-Vulcan" as needed).

7) The character must show invulnerability or uber-resistance to injury/disease without any established reason.

8) Character must gain extraordinary recognition (I mean ridiculous like Mary acquiring the awards listed) for simplistic/unrealistic action. Like a fifteen year old running a starship.

9) Over reaction by other characters at the death of said character (Spock crying made me laugh).

10) Over emphasis on the importance of said character without a legitimate reason. (like the Enterprise Holiday for Mary's actions).

That's a list that makes sense.
If this label is going to be used, it needs to be reserved for when someone actually creates a character like Mary Sue and not a demi-god/superhero who is integral to a story which is well thought out, complex, and of epic proportions.

A character with six or more of these traits should be considered a possible Mary Sue/Marty Stu.

[LadyWarrior]

I'm confused. Is that the entire story?

[Prime Administrator]

Yep that's the whole story.

This idiotic story has generated a cugel in modern literature that probably has John Cambell spinning in his grave.

Here is the original Mary Stu litmus test written by a blogger who actually has the gaul to call himself Doctor Merlin.

http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html

Superman gets a 73 on this test, Merlin ranks up at 65, Jesus gets a whopping 110, and Enoch gets a 106 (not my Enoch, the one from the Book of Enoch).
This term has got to go.
I say this because supposedly "professional" literary critics and writers are now using the term.
http://www.storyentertainment.com/ow/ow.asp?MarySue

This is clearly a bunch of Futurian nonsense, pushed by people who clearly can't write themselves thus they have to blugeon other writers into lowering the interesting features of their original characters to the level of something boring like Dave Boman from 2001.

[LadyWarrior]

Yep that's the whole story.

That is the dumbest story I have EVER read, even if it is supposed to be a parody.

Here is the original Mary Stu litmus test written by a blogger who actually has the gaul to call himself Doctor Merlin.

http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html

Superman gets a 73 on this test, Merlin ranks up at 65, Jesus gets a whopping 110, and Enoch gets a 106 (not my Enoch, the one from the Book of Enoch).
This term has got to go.

Critics are probably the most annoying creatures on Earth (after banksters and lawyers of course). Why do they feel the need to make up stupid shit to criticize others' writing...oh, I know, they don't have a clue how to write an entertaining story themselves, so they have to rag on everyone else to make themselves feel better. I think Stephen King said it best when he said "F**K critics".

I say this because supposedly "professional" literary critics and writers are now using the term.
http://www.storyentertainment.com/ow/ow.asp?MarySue

And how in the hell is Wesley Crusher a Marty Stu? That doesn't even make sense.

[LadyWarrior]

http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html

From the above link:
"Bono from U2 scores a whopping 72 points! That doesn't mean he's a Mary-Sue; it just means he has astonishing number of romanticized traits -- and although he's a real person, he might not make a very believable character."

WHAT!!!!!!!! Are you kidding me? That is the stupidest thing anyone has ever said! I suppose all biographies of interesting people would be considered Mary Sue stories with "unrealistic" characters. You know, like Patton, Alexander the Great, etc.
I truly hope "professionals" stop recognizing this idea as anything but nonsense.

[Prime Administrator]

By the way...I just put Dave Bowman from Athur C. Clarke's 2001 through the Litmus test, he scores a 14 which according to the test is:

The Non-Sue. Your character is a well-developed, balanced person, and is almost certainly not a Mary Sue. Congratulations!

And since Dave Bowman is probably one of the worst--not to mention boring--characters in modern Science Fiction, I'd say this is clearly a Futurian term.

The only reason I even watched the movie 2001 was because of the musical score.

Captain Kirk on the other hand scores a whopping 67 by my reckoning!

Über-Sue. You've got one hell of a Mary-Sue on your hands here, and it's not going to be easy to set things right. But do your best. There may be hope for you yet.

And Lelouch from Code Geass gets a 101:

Irredeemable-Sue. You're going to have to start over, my friend. I know you want to keep writing, but no. Just no.

[Prime Administrator]

Aparently Wesley Crusher was too good a character for the critics.
Though, John Luke Picard is clearly closer to this idiotic label, I find that few to no critics label the Uberintelligent/Diplomatic Captain as such.

My isn't it interesting that the cherished characters of the Futurians are spared this pejorative.